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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 8:56 pm 
Chief Smithy
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Asterios wrote:
Hothram wrote:

you obviously are not aware of the entymology of the term coat of arms here is the Dictionary definition of Coat-of-arms:

coat of arms  noun 1.a surcoat or tabard embroidered with heraldic devices, worn by medieval knights over their armor.
2.a heraldic achievement of arms.

now nowhere does it mention it was on the shield, now while helmets did have crests, that is not where the family crest would be displayed, since the family crest was more then just a symbol, which a crest is, it was a gathering of symbols to represent events and such of the family and was usually presented on a shield in a 2-4 field design, while the formal family crest was presented on a banner,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crest_(heraldry)

See both of those wikipedia pages, but also the citations/references within them. Those are your people with doctorates. And people without that still know plenty of the facts. Whatever category Hothram falls into, he seems to know more than you in this field.

(Also, Entomology is study of insects. Etymology is the root of a word. Entymology is not a word.)


Asterios wrote:
now I don't know who you are, but i'm gonna believe the people with doctorates and such in this field over you.


Oh, and while disagreeing and even debating with someone is fine, you could stand to be a bit nicer about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:14 pm 
Beheaded
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Shadow Viking wrote:
Asterios wrote:
Hothram wrote:

you obviously are not aware of the entymology of the term coat of arms here is the Dictionary definition of Coat-of-arms:

coat of arms  noun 1.a surcoat or tabard embroidered with heraldic devices, worn by medieval knights over their armor.
2.a heraldic achievement of arms.

now nowhere does it mention it was on the shield, now while helmets did have crests, that is not where the family crest would be displayed, since the family crest was more then just a symbol, which a crest is, it was a gathering of symbols to represent events and such of the family and was usually presented on a shield in a 2-4 field design, while the formal family crest was presented on a banner,



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crest_(heraldry)

See both of those wikipedia pages, but also the citations/references within them. Those are your people with doctorates. And people without that still know plenty of the facts. Whatever category Hothram falls into, he seems to know more than you in this field.

(Also, Entomology is study of insects. Etymology is the root of a word. Entymology is not a word.)


Asterios wrote:
now I don't know who you are, but i'm gonna believe the people with doctorates and such in this field over you.


Oh, and while disagreeing and even debating with someone is fine, you could stand to be a bit nicer about it.



SV the very fact you quote a Wiki says enough, since anybody with a psychosis can post anything on the Wikis, I go by actual printed words, not what some psycho could have posted on a wiki, go read the printed word used in colleges and by professionals and they will say the same thing.

by the way if you read the definition of what you posted it would have also backed me up, when it states Originally, the crest was often "continued into the mantling", but today the crest normally stands within a wreath of cloth, called a torse, in the principal tinctures of the shield (the liveries).

Also another proof that the "Family Crest was not used on the helmet was the mere fact that such a decoration would have been disasterous when in combat.

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Last edited by Asterios on Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:19 pm 
Crucible King
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I don't usually agree with SV ( :9 ), but:

Shadow Viking wrote:
but also the citations/references within them. Those are your people with doctorates.


As someone deep into heraldry and symbolism, this discussion is of special interest to me.

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Last edited by Napoleon on Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:44 pm 
Chief Smithy
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Asterios wrote:
now I don't know who you are, but i'm gonna believe the people with doctorates and such in this field over you.

SV the very fact you quote a Wiki says enough, since anybody with a psychosis can post anything on the Wikis, I go by actual printed words, not what some psycho could have posted on a wiki, go read the printed word used in colleges and by professionals and they will say the same thing.


"See both of those wikipedia pages, but also the citations/references within them."

Wikipedia articles, just like any professional work written by someone with a doctorate or what have you, use references. That's what's important. Wikipedia is just a collection of links to articles on others which can't be edited by "anybody with a psychosis"

Also, ironically, the people with psychoses help wikipedia stay true. Bogus info is removed horrifyingly quickly thanks to the neurotic and the obsessive. And, of course, very sane and clever people with a bit of spare time.

Ass, the very fact that you automatically tried to shut down the wiki use says more than enough- you're a know nothing tool.

Asterios wrote:
by the way if you read the definition of what you posted it would have also backed me up, when it states Originally, the crest was often "continued into the mantling", but today the crest normally stands within a wreath of cloth, called a torse, in the principal tinctures of the shield (the liveries).
Also another proof that the "Family Crest was not used on the helmet was the mere fact that such a decoration would have been disasterous when in combat.


this is my favourite part of your comment: after bashing wikis, you try to use them to back up your own point. In further irony, it just mars your case; the full quote reads thus:
Wikipedia wrote:
Originally, the crest was often "continued into the mantling", but today the crest normally stands within a wreath of cloth, called a torse, in the principal tinctures of the shield (the liveries). Various kinds of coronet may take the place of the torse, though in some unusual circumstances the coronet sits atop a torse, and is either defined as all or part of a crest."


Moreover, at the top of the page:
Wikipedia wrote:
The word crest is often mistakenly applied to a coat of arms.


Also telling is the use of the word crest on the coat of arms page (a better referenced page, I should add) - three times used, and referring to exactly what Hothram was.

Don't bite me, Ass. I bite back. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:56 pm 
Beheaded
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Shadow Viking wrote:
Asterios wrote:
now I don't know who you are, but i'm gonna believe the people with doctorates and such in this field over you.

SV the very fact you quote a Wiki says enough, since anybody with a psychosis can post anything on the Wikis, I go by actual printed words, not what some psycho could have posted on a wiki, go read the printed word used in colleges and by professionals and they will say the same thing.


"See both of those wikipedia pages, but also the citations/references within them."

Wikipedia articles, just like any professional work written by someone with a doctorate or what have you, use references. That's what's important. Wikipedia is just a collection of links to articles on others which can't be edited by "anybody with a psychosis"

Also, ironically, the people with psychoses help wikipedia stay true. Bogus info is removed horrifyingly quickly thanks to the neurotic and the obsessive. And, of course, very sane and clever people with a bit of spare time.

Ass, the very fact that you automatically tried to shut down the wiki use says more than enough- you're a know nothing tool.

Asterios wrote:
by the way if you read the definition of what you posted it would have also backed me up, when it states Originally, the crest was often "continued into the mantling", but today the crest normally stands within a wreath of cloth, called a torse, in the principal tinctures of the shield (the liveries).
Also another proof that the "Family Crest was not used on the helmet was the mere fact that such a decoration would have been disasterous when in combat.


this is my favourite part of your comment: after bashing wikis, you try to use them to back up your own point. In further irony, it just mars your case; the full quote reads thus:
Wikipedia wrote:
Originally, the crest was often "continued into the mantling", but today the crest normally stands within a wreath of cloth, called a torse, in the principal tinctures of the shield (the liveries). Various kinds of coronet may take the place of the torse, though in some unusual circumstances the coronet sits atop a torse, and is either defined as all or part of a crest."


Moreover, at the top of the page:
Wikipedia wrote:
The word crest is often mistakenly applied to a coat of arms.


Also telling is the use of the word crest on the coat of arms page (a better referenced page, I should add) - three times used, and referring to exactly what Hothram was.

Don't bite me, Ass. I bite back. :)



ok a few more paraphrases, Crests have appeared on shields (usually when in battle and such), as part of the decoration, when a helmet appears on the shield, but a coat of arms, never appears on a shield, while a shield can appear on a coat of arms, so as it goes I'm not wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 9:58 pm 
Smelt Sire
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I'm gonna close this until this silliness is resolved. It's a shield. A knight's shield. You cannot say it was never used for battle because you weren't alive during that time.

-Omi

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 Post subject: Re: Modified Knights Shield
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:03 pm 
Chief Smithy
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Asterios wrote:
ok a few more paraphrases, Crests have appeared on shields (usually when in battle and such), as part of the decoration, when a helmet appears on the shield, but a coat of arms, never appears on a shield, while a shield can appear on a coat of arms, so as it goes I'm not wrong.

...so, basically, crests appeared on shields when they appeared on helmets which were on shields, which means that crests go on helmets and not on shields (unless on a helmet on a shield).

So, basically, Hothmar was correct. Good to know! :)

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